‘We Involve A Revolution’: Carla Ravaioli Interviews Guido Rossi

What follows is my translation of an interview that Marxist journalist in addition to writer Carla Ravaioli conducted with police scholar Guido Rossi inward 2010, inward the early on stages of the eurozone’s crisis. Rossi was an unlikely individual to telephone phone for Leninism or revolution: he had spent his career equally a fiscal regulator in addition to concern police expert, overseeing major banking acquisitions in addition to working for a fourth dimension for ABN Amro. Most recently, he had stepped downwards equally chairman of Telecom Italia, in addition to would shortly larn ‘ethical watchdog’ of Consob, Italy’s securities in addition to central commission.

At the fourth dimension of the interview, Rossi was 79, spell Ravaioli was 87. I annotation their ages to house them inside a generation that thought through several, oftentimes dramatic iterations of the intelligence revolution.

The interview was originally published on Il Manifesto, 31 Oct 2010. This translation was get-go published at Overland.

Recovery, economical revival, boosting the GDP, promoting growth… These are the tools that economists, society directors, industrialists, politicians insist upon to come upward out of the crisis. What are your thoughts?

My view is real definite. I believe at that topographic point truly is a primal error inward the concluding goal of all politics, which is economical progress. As yous said, it’s all that economists think about: boosting production in addition to productivity, at all costs. So that which used to live the engine of capitalism, economical progress, has larn the engine of every system, in addition to marketplace capitalism has been joined past times nation capitalism. See, for instance, China: where all the commons things are happening, to the detriment of the weakest. In the meantime, those that Norberto Bobbio used to telephone phone ‘second- in addition to third-generation rights’, with this acceleration of economical progress at all costs, are brutally trampled upon. As Robert Reich said inward Supercapitalism, the defence forcefulness of citizens’ rights has been replaced past times the defence forcefulness of consumers’ rights. Now the goal is to exercise to a greater extent than in addition to to a greater extent than benefits for consumers to the detriment of the traditional rights to employment, run safety, superannuation. Consider how economical evolution equally the foundation of human action is cited fifty-fifty inward Ratzinger’s latest encyclical, inward which he claims that globalisation is the key to an economical progress that spreads alongside all nations. Which isn’t true. Nor is it truthful – equally people say – that ideologies receive got disappeared. It’s only that a novel 1 has arisen, in addition to it has killed all the others.

This wild pursuit of increase continues whilst the ecological crisis (which is due inward plough to a productivism that is unsustainable both inward terms of quantity in addition to of quality) is reaching levels that may non live reversed, equally the entire scientific community is saying. How is it possible for prominent personalities – powerful managers, nifty industrialists, world-renowned economists – to overlook all this?

The job is exactly that the priority hasn’t ceased to live increase in addition to economical development, to which everything else is sacrificed. But, yous see, what is sacrificed are non exclusively the issues to which yous alluded, but also problems similar populace hunger. Which since 2007 has got steadily worse: straight off there’s verbalize of 1 billion undernourished people worldwide; in addition to no-one deals with it. Truthfully, the ideology of economical evolution erases each in addition to every job that concerns character of life in addition to human rights, equally good equally creating senseless wars… The termination is a monastic tell whose exclusively goal is the duty to grow economically: what’s more, on the footing of parameters that are completely absurd, such equally GDP, which has zippo to exercise with character of life.

But, fifty-fifty if nosotros conceded that these people are completely disinterested inward the social, what exercise they think that cars, computers, mobile phones, skyscrapers in addition to weapons are made of… Can’t they reckon that they are ‘made’ of nature, in addition to that if nature dies, the same thing volition occur to their production?

No, they can’t reckon it. And I’ll tell yous why. Because it’s a job that concerns the future, whereas the acquaint is all well-nigh increase in addition to immediate profit…

Yet this besides is imperilled past times the most recent events. The consequences of the catastrophe inward the Gulf of United Mexican U.S. of A. are only equally much economical equally ecological.

Without a doubt. I grip on this betoken too. When a catastrophe comes, they notice. But in addition to so what exercise they do? They insist on the same patterns that caused the catastrophe: they receive got zippo else on their minds. Apocalyptic literature describes all this. Some books of this genre receive got perturbed me. For instance, Achever Clausewitz (‘Finishing Clausewitz’) past times René Girard, who says this: ‘the warming of the planet in addition to the ascent inward violence are absolutely linked.’ The confusion betwixt the natural in addition to the artificial is peradventure the strongest message of these apocalyptic texts. Martin Rees, the nifty Cambridge astronomer, writer of Our Final Century, doubts that the human race volition live on the electrical flow century, exactly because it is destroying the planet. And Posner says similar things inward his volume Catastrophe: with a populace population that, according to estimates, volition amount to over nine billion people inward 2050, the opportunity of famines volition live appalling. reason cannot give to a greater extent than than what it has.

These things are good known. There are also economists that criticise capitalism to some degree, for instance with honor to the nifty social inequalities, the gap betwixt the salary of executives in addition to the salary of workers… But nobody thinks to enquiry the system, with a view of changing it…

Because ideology forbids it. It’s a thing of faith. These are Talebans, yous cannot alter their minds…

But the job with this agency of conceiving capitalism equally an immutable fact of nature is that it seems to live shared also past times the Left.

Of course, because it opted for reformisms, in addition to that’s the ideology that prevailed. It is an ideology that spreading fifty-fifty inside the religions: this is why I mentioned the latest encyclical past times the Pope.

Because they also think that increase volition pick out well-being to everyone. But this has proven non to live the case. If 1 per cent of the population owns 50 per cent of what is produced…

Yes. But yous forgot something. Namely, that 51 per cent, or past times straight off fifty-fifty more, of the global wealth is held past times the corporations, in addition to the economic scheme is no longer governed past times states: states no longer count for anything. So, who’s inward charge? Big business. It controls the bulk of the planet’s wealth: it must live on in addition to live inward command. So, then… Look at what happens to the outsourcing of industries that, inward monastic tell to survive, exercise all sorts of things, trample entire economies in addition to all rights, without a attention inward the world… The retreat of politics is due exactly to this: that economic science has achieved total dominance.

At this betoken shouldn’t the Left – which inward spite of everything continues to laboriously be – confront this reality, reverberate upon it? Perhaps remembering past times mistakes; such equally the fact that, for fearfulness that technology scientific discipline would Pb to unemployment, they gifted progress to capitalism: spell the threat of a increase without run could receive got been used to fundamentally reconsider the human relationship betwixt production in addition to life… But they left everything inward the hands of capital.

After all it was upper-case missive of the alphabet that invented progress, in addition to it won’t allow move of it.

Well, truly it was invented past times science…

Which is governed past times the same ideology…

Also because they postulate the grants. But behind nifty technological transformation lies the thought of a scientist…

We shouldn’t forget inward whatsoever instance that at that topographic point are intellectuals who are discussing these issues. Amartya Sen for instance says that commonwealth cannot live reduced to voting… that nosotros postulate a commonwealth made of broad discussion. He says inward fact that give-and-take would assist us avoid natural catastrophes.

Natural catastrophes – equally yous said with nifty clarity – cannot live avoided equally long equally the gross production continues to grow. This is why I’m surprised that non fifty-fifty the few people who are aware of the gravity of the ecological province of affairs observe the courage to say: nosotros must halt growing. That is to say, nosotros must abandon capitalism.

We must abandon capitalism. But to supervene upon it with what? Nobody has whatsoever idea. That’s the issue.

Yet today it may non live impossible to observe one. Globalisation is a fact that nobody denies anymore. And of course of pedagogy at that topographic point is an economical globalisation, equally good equally a cultural globalisation created past times the volume media. But at that topographic point is no political globalisation.

And at that topographic point is no juridical globalisation, either. This is the nifty departure with the globalisation of the Middle Ages, that was regulated past times the famous Lex mercatoria, which was a organisation of rules developed past times merchants, in addition to non past times a unmarried state: in addition to through those rules, commerce worked. Now the nifty corporations bargain alongside themselves. There is no juridical organisation that regulates their behaviour: with regard to populace hunger, exploitation of the lower classes, shaver labour, security at run – which according to [then Italian Finance Minister] Giulio Tremonti is a luxury. And, naturally, non fifty-fifty with regard to the planet.

Is this non also due to the fact that the Left used to live opposed to all this, in addition to no longer is? Or rather, they are opposed exclusively inward some instances, which at whatsoever charge per unit of measurement cannot live solved without changing the overall context. As nosotros said earlier, globalisation is a reality governed past times large business. But nobody tries to regulate it, nor to empathize it. Including the Left.

There’s a argue for that. The Left kept reflecting for equally long equally at that topographic point was Communism, which was an ideology opposed to capitalism which inward some ways offered option solutions. After the autumn of the Berlin Wall, everything changed. Politics has disappeared, economic science has taken over in addition to is asserting itself equally politics. The Left has abandoned Marxism.

So, an organised Left with some clout doesn’t exist. But at that topographic point is a multitude of movements, of pocket-size in addition to large grassroots groups, that, inward spite of operating independently of 1 another, yet denounce the worst iniquities in addition to injustices that surround us, which tin give the axe live all traced dorsum to the logic of capital. Pacifism, feminism, environmentalism, which focus on unmarried aspects of each job (water, nuclear power, the state of war inward Afghanistan, rape, youth precarity, etc.): don’t yous think that taken together they mightiness constitute the base of operations for a large-scale revival of an effective opposition? But the Left is non fifty-fifty trying…

It’s non trying because it lacks a unifying ideology. Marxism was born when capitalism ceased to live mercantile in addition to became industrial, in addition to Karl Marx developed a wholly novel ideology. In the in conclusion few years, similarly, at that topographic point has been a novel revolution, the fiscal revolution. To oppose it, nosotros postulate a novel ideology. The Brazilian police scholar Roberto Mangabeira Unger, inward an fantabulous volume entitled High-Energy Democracy, says that instead of guaranteeing the faux contractual liberty that underpins the fiscal revolution, nosotros postulate a populace authorisation capable of imposing novel rules in addition to creating the base of operations for a different form of structure, with a global reach.

Don’t yous think, then, that the Left should think of something similar this, peradventure promoting a coming together betwixt the few intellectuals who considered this issue? I’ve thought for a long fourth dimension of a Bretton Woods for the twenty-first century…

But it’s no longer enough. Do yous desire my opinion? At the damage of beingness defendant of Leninism? We postulate a revolution. The Russian Revolution is what changed the ideology of industrial capitalism. If nosotros don’t exercise a proper revolution, what are going to do?

If yous verbalize well-nigh revolution, everyone volition think well-nigh cannons… according to the historical model…

Which is no longer possible, obviously…

Exactly. This is why I mentioned Bretton Woods, inward the feel that nosotros postulate a worldwide initiative, with the authorisation of dealing with these problems, which are well-known but nobody faces upward to.

Yes, it needs to come upward from the United Nations, I’ve written well-nigh this many times…

Because the United Nations afterwards all has made some serious attempts. Concerning the environment, towards the goal of the in conclusion century it promoted a couplet of large conferences, much to a greater extent than effective than the ones that came after… And many times, inward its reports on human development, it took positions against consumerism, against the gross domestic product equally stair out of well-being, against state of war equally a solution to our problems… Ban Ki-moon has fifty-fifty expressed a wishing for a reduction of GDP…

Well, yes. After the Declaration of Human Rights past times the United Nations General Assembly inward 1948, something happened, equally it did afterwards the Declaration of the Rights of Man in addition to of the Citizen inward 1789. Only something similar that could alter the situation: a global revolution, organised past times the United Nations, capable of defining the existent rights, the principles for a different life to that which is mandated past times the economical powers, so a life oriented past times politics rather than economics. They’ll accuse me of beingness a utopian. But I believe that utopia is preferable to the apocalypse, which is the option that awaits us.